On a recent vistit to the Catholic Answers forum I came across a post inquiring where to find info on candidates. Someone posted the Priest's For Life website. I quickly posted my disapproval because there has been much criticism about Fr. Frank Pavone's seeming support of John McCain. There was a response to my post which I found to be interesting. And I am quite pleased if it is true and if there was no "but" in the actual response. Just a reminder to those reading the post-Catholic Answers forum does not allow board members to mention the names of candidates or political parties. Here is the post:
"Please don't defame Fr. Pavone. He was taking calls on an EWTN show, and a gentleman called up and asked about a specific third party candidate. Fr. Pavone said he would be a wonderful choice."
That may very well be the case. However, Priests for Life is passing out Voter's guides with only TWO candidates' stances on the issues. Obama and McCain.
The responses attributed to McCain are directly off the McCain website, worded precisely by his campaign to characterize him as *Pro-Life* , but his entire record and history of responses shows that he is NOT.
In practical application, by the information Fr. Pavone is distributing, the GOOD choices of Third Party candidates do not exist.
No one need defame Fr. Pavone. He is doing so himself through his actions.
Edited by groovsmyth 2008-09-03 5:27 PM
Posted 2008-09-03 5:25 PM (#413 - in reply to #308) By: groovsmyth
Thanks for your input, Carl. I could use your help and the help of other Catholic Keyes supporters on another thread that I started on the Catholic Answers forum. Some, in agreeing with Fr. Pavone's admonition of "What I have failed to do", are declaring that those who vote for a third party pro-life candidate who seemingly has no chance of winning have to take some responsibility for the loss of the election to the pro-choice candidate. It is also being said that those who vote for the third party candidate are "promoting sin" because by their wasted votes they have caused the promotion of sin.
Just a reminder no mentioning of the names of candidates or political parties.
During recent election years, Priests for Life has provided important moral guidance to voters. In a non-partisan manner, we have assisted believers to apply moral principles to their voting decisions. All human choices, by definition, have moral dimensions – including the choices we make at the polls.
Fr. Frank Pavone has put together a booklet called “Voting with a Clear Conscience,” which summarizes the message he delivers around the country regarding the moral considerations of voting.
This booklet meets all legal requirements for distribution by Churches and other 501 (c)(3) organizations. Click here for a detailed legal memo from Bopp, Coleson and Bostrom (PDF format).
The following questions, among others, are considered in this booklet:
What do the Pope and Bishops say about our duty to vote? What issues are most important in deciding which candidate to support? Does the party of the candidate matter? What if no candidate seems right? ... 4. Distinguish Policy from Principle
When a policy breaks the very founding principle of government, that is more than an ordinary political disagreement. That’s why a candidate’s position on abortion is about more than abortion. It is about the kind of authority government has. It is about who is ultimately in charge, God or government? It’s about the most fundamental political question there can be.
Candidates are supposed to advocate policies that advance the common good and the dignity of the human person. A candidate who advocates policies that violate those fundamental principles should not be elected to public office, because he or she violates the purpose of public office.
Certain other political disputes have arisen that likewise are not mere policy disputes, but disputes about principle. They include:
a)the killing of the tiniest humans through destructive embryonic stem cell research;
b)the killing of infants already partially born (through partial-birth abortion);
c)the killing of the disabled, like Terri Schiavo, and the advocacy of euthanasia and assisted suicide;
d)the denial of religious freedom, such as the freedom of doctors and institutions to refrain from actions they hold to be immoral;
e)the denial of the natural institution of marriage as the union of one man and one woman;
f)the denial of the right to self-government. This denial occurs when candidates view judges and courts as the final arbiters of public policy, rather than the people themselves, acting through their duly elected legislators.
Candidates who advocate these errors are embracing positions that transcend normal political disagreements, and hence carry far more weight than positions on other policies.
Father Pavone wrote this booklet in early 2006. Why does he endorse John McCain?
John McCain supports embryonic stem cell research and States' "rights" to allow abortion. In an August 2006 interview with Esquire Magazine, Senator John McCain said: I understand the frustrations a lot of Republicans feel. We’re not representing their hopes and dreams and aspirations. We worry about Ms. Schiavo before we worry about balancing the budget. On October 28, 2008 McCain said: I voted for [pro-abortion Supreme Court Judges] Breyer and Ginsburg. I voted for them because President Clinton was elected and they were qualified. Ideologically I didn't agree with them but they were qualified. In 2006, McCain was one of only three Republican senators to vote against defining marriage between one man and one woman. McCain said: I think that gay marriage should be allowed if there's a ceremony kind of thing, if you wanna call it that, I don't have any problem with that.
Why has Father Pavone changed his position?
Edited by Philomena 2008-10-30 7:41 PM
Posted 2008-10-30 8:00 AM (#2517 - in reply to #416) By: Philomena
What about deliberate candidate supression? What kind of a sin is that? Mortal or venial? What about collusion with the media and other religious leaders to bury the truth and mislead their followers.based on calculations that are only urban myths and self-fulfilling prophesies--pragmatism without foundation? ...circular reasoning, obfuscation, twisted logic...
Father Pavone, don't tell me that I "promoted sin" when I voted for Alan Keyes! How dare you!
Edited by lifepath 2008-10-30 9:41 AM
Posted 2008-10-30 8:35 AM (#2518 - in reply to #416) By: lifepath
I belong to Fr. Pavone's Lay Missionaries of the Gospel of Life. Well, I should say, I used to be active. However, though I've asked to be deleted from their e-mail lists, I'm still receiving them.
I've met the man many times. I had always respected his dedication to the pre-born. His Priests for Life website contains excellent apologetics for the Pro-Life cause. I have worked to propagate the spirituality of MEV and have distributed many of his materials in the past. I even became involved with the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform after I found out he sits on their Board of Directors.
When my pastor refused to allow literature from Catholic Answers on the 5 Catholic Non-Negotiables in our church during the 2004 election year, I began to try and find an end run around him. Not used to being a "dissenting Catholic" I had qualms of disloyalty and sought spiritual direction from Fr. Pavone via e-mail. He wrote to me assuring me that sometimes we have to stand up to our shepherds to challenge their apathy. He encouraged me to inform my conscience fully, form my conscience according to Church teaching and then continue to advocate for the pre-born according to that conscience and suffer the consequences of any resulting insubordination.
He advised me well, don't you think?
I remember receiving a personal endorsement e-mail from him early in the Republican Primaries saying that Sam Brownback would protect the babies. Again on his trusted recommendation, I began doing some research on Sam Brownback.
It was along about this time that I saw a debate hosted by Tavis Smiley held at a black college, which McCain, Guilliani and Romney, the "frontrunners" all snubbed. I saw Alan Keyes go against the rest of the panel of "second-tier" aspirants seeking nomination. These included Hunter, Tancredo, Paul, Brownback and Huckabee. Dr. Keyes proceeded to hand them all their heads on a platter. Paul received some chatter from the mostly black (probably Democratic) audience. But, by and large, despite their reticence, they gave Keyes his props for making valid points. I had heard from Christian friends that Huckabee was the one to watch. Comparing Huckabee that night with Brownback and Keyes, I came away respecting Keyes the most.
Not long after that debate, Brownback withdrew from the race. On his way out, he endorsed John McCain. I was told when I attempted to contact Fr. Pavone in order to persuade him of the Real Deal of Dr. Keyes, that Fr. Pavone was "disenchanted" after working so closely with Brownback. Though I was never able to speak to him directly, (his assistants screened all methods of contact) they assured me that he could not publicly endorse anyone. I kept asking why he wouldn't personally endorse Keyes like he did Brownback. I never did get a response to that question, either directly or indirectly.
Subsequently, Fr. Pavone began to be more aggressive in his chosen assessment that he would "limit evil" during this campaign. He used the rhetoric lifepath references. Paraphrased, he began to say that Catholics who did not limit evil [meaning Obama's "infanticide"] and that evil prevailed in the election, we who supported "spoilers" would be guilty of the sin of omission.
So, in the interim, we've heard from Fr. Pavone devotees who are aghast that we should question this tried-and-true advocate for the pre-born, as if for anyone to question him was tantamount to blasphemy.
As Tom has said, to be fair, on the Evangelical front, Dr. Dobson has produced much the same cognitive and spiritual dissonance.
Well, personally, I'm taking the advice Fr. Pavone gave me early on. I believe Fr. Pavone is divergent from Truth. Though he's not my direct shepherd, and even though I never made a formal profession with MEV, I still am very grieved to act with "insubordination" to him. He was, after all, the Pro-Life "hero" to me that many still cling to. May I remind you, Dear Catholic, that neither Fr. Pavone, nor any human, will be holding your hand at your Particular Judgment before King Jesus. We are all perfectly capable of discernment in comparing arguments set before us.
Edited by groovsmyth 2008-10-30 11:25 AM
Posted 2008-10-30 10:48 AM (#2521 - in reply to #2518) By: groovsmyth
Note the National Right to Life's Bopp connection to Father Pavone in the above posted 2006 "Ten Easy Steps".
Posted 2008-10-30 7:43 PM (#2548 - in reply to #2521) By: Philomena
This is really serious. Last night I watched the late night rebroadcast of the daily Mass on EWTN. Father Pavone was the celebrant and gave his sermon about the election. He expounded on the points he has posted in this concise version.
Father Pavone, at 4:09 in the video, says, "This is not the time for scrupulosity."
scrupulosity - the quality or state of being scrupulous
scrupulous - having moral integrity: acting in a strict regard for what is considered right or proper
I just called Priests for Life at 888-735-3448 and told them I wanted election information. They transferred me to the appropriate political affiliate, which was answered by a young lady who identified herself as Christine. I told her I wanted more information about the presidential election because I want to vote for the most pro-life candidate.
To summarize our conversation: She said John McCain is pro-life. I asked about embyonic stem cell research. She said Father Pavone has spoken with McCain and we can work with McCain. McCain has changed his mind. McCain would appoint pro-life judges. McCain is in favor of a human life amendment. I asked if there were any other candidates who are pro-life. She said she didn't have any other names. She said I could go on the internet to www.politicalresponsibility.com (Priests for Life) or www.nrlc.org (National Right to Life Committee). I said I know Alan Keyes is pro-life and maybe Chuck Baldwin, what about voting for them? She said Father Pavone says we have to look at their chances of winning, and that McCain is not as bad as Obama.
(Please see the thread, "Fr. Corapi: Death Wish" for Catholic teaching.)
Posted 2008-11-01 7:00 AM (#2602 - in reply to #2548) By: Philomena
I searched Priests for Life website for "Keyes" and it returned this article posted October 8, 2008.
Posted October 8, 2008, Alan Keyes featured: http://www.priestsforlife.org/news/top20list.htm Top 20 Christian Organization http://www.priestsforlife.org/news/top20article.htm Excerpt: The Judeo-Christian Council for Constitutional Restoration (JCCCR) is an outgrowth of years of work with churches nationwide by Rev. Rick Scarborough. ... The JCCCR is a key driving force behind the “Values Voter Contract with Congress,” which is also heavily supported by Phyllis Schlafly of Eagle Forum, and Ambassador Alan Keyes of Renew America. ... Key strategy sessions often find her and Ambassador Alan Keyes, former Presidential candidate and the head of Renew America, at the same table. Ambassador Keyes’ and Renew America’s, influence is profound, as his ability to see through political pandering and cut to the heart of an issue being discussed is well documented. A key area where Ambassador Keyes pulls no punches is the issue of abortion and he has, on numerous occasions, been known for calling the kettle black when others in the room see a shade of gray. His direct comments are usually accompanied by nods of agreement from the others in the room, which reveals the deference this man is shown. Sharing this passion for protecting the unborn, and often in the same room, is Father Frank Pavone, who heads Priests for Life, and who is considered a key leader in the fight to protect life in America. Father Pavone is considered a go-to man on the life issue, and there is hardly a pro-life press conference, or a meeting on the subject, that does not have him in a prominent position.
2004 newsletter, posted on Priests for Life on September 24, 2008 and October 6, 2008: http://www.priestsforlife.org/newsletters/v14n02marapr04.pdf http://www.priestsforlife.org/newsletters/v14n02marapr04.htm Which offered a CD, "Fire and Ice": Do you have people look at you like you're crazy when you tell them about the horrors of partial-birth abortion? Well here is a tape of one! Hear the suction of the brains; hear the abortionist describe the process; hear the applause of the abortionists after the child has been killed! Then hear inspiring remarks by Alan Keyes! With this product,nobody will doubt you again!
1998 National Catholic Register article posted September 24, 2008: http://www.priestsforlife.org/clippings/98,10-03ncrpba.htm Last words: "Perhaps Alan Keyes, the political commentator and 1996 presidential candidate, framed the issue best in an interview with the Register He said, "Keep fighting. Keep pushing this issue. Today we lost the vote, but we are doing battle for the soul of the country."
1998 National Catholic Register article posted September 24, 2008:Last words: "Perhaps Alan Keyes, the political commentator and 1996 presidential candidate, framed the issue best in an interview with the He said, "Keep fighting. Keep pushing this issue. Today we lost the vote, but we are doing battle for the soul of the country."
2006 National Catholic Register article posted October 6, 2008: http://www.priestsforlife.org/clippings/2006/06-10-22catholicvoters.htm Excerpt: “We are in a time when the sovereignty of the people is in play. We are turning to the people and saying, ‘Accept or reject this major change in cultural tradition,’ and it’s a responsibility that we ought to view by the providence of God as a special responsibility that we should consider as a great privilege,” said former GOP presidential candidate and Catholic political scholar Alan Keyes.
According to Catholic doctine, McCain is NOT Pro-Life! Father Pavone and others are afraid of Obama, and are saying the lesser of two evils is the best we can do. This is not true. According to Catholic doctrine, we are ALWAYS to choose LIFE. No excuses. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=722&posts=11
Edited by Philomena 2008-11-01 7:54 AM
Posted 2008-11-01 7:28 AM (#2603 - in reply to #2602) By: Philomena
Re: Catholic Answers Forum
Yesterday I stumbled upon a thread at the Catholic Answers Forum entitled "Do I HAVE to Vote for McCain?" where someone mentioned Alan Keyes:
As Catholics we know we "Can Not!" vote for Obama and we truly do not have to vote for McCain, we could vote for a more staunch pro-life supporter like Alan Keyes.
If he were a front runner with a chance of winning, I would most heartily endorse him but for the sake of unborn children in danger of abortion I am voting for a pro-life ticket with a strong chance of winning.
The fate of millions of unborn babies, God's creation, lie in the palm of our hand as we vote, we must remain focused on life as we cast our vote. We certainly do no not HAVE to vote for McCain to be true to ourselves as American Catholic Christians, but as the highest profiled contender with the greatest chance of defeating the pro-abortion candidate we must vote for McCain. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=4366516#post4366516
I joined the forum and respectfully and factually posted concerning Catholic teaching and the lesser of two evils. It wasn't long before I was banned "for a week" and all my posts deleted. What a shame. They have left quotes of my posts within other posts:
McCain supports killing embryos for research; supports abortion if a baby's father committed the crime of rape; and States' "choice", i.e. the states should have "right" to legalize abortion.
McCain said "We're not representing their hopes and dreams and aspirations. We worry about Ms Schiavo before we worry about balancing the budget." McCain said "I think that gay marriage should be allowed if there's a ceremony kind of thing, if you wanna call it that. I don't have any problem with that." McCain said on October 28, 2008, "I voted for [pro-abortion Supreme Court Judges] Breyer and Ginsburg. I voted for them because President Clinton was elected and they were qualified. Ideologically I didn't agree with them but they were qualified."
Many, including some priests and bishops, are endorsing McCain out of fear of Obama. Here are only a couple of passages from The Catechism of the Catholic Church on the topic of human life:
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. -- Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. -- My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
According to Catholic doctrine, we are ALWAYS to choose LIFE. No excuses. This would especially be true when there are candidates available who DO meet the standard of church teaching on human life.
If the next election is Obama versus a Republican who is worse than Obama, do you then choose Obama?
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We compromise with evil when we fear: "I don't believe that enough of my brothers and sisters in Christ are going to vote for the pro-life candidate, so I am not going to vote for him either."
That's making other human beings our standard. God is pro-life. God is our standard.
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2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
John McCain does not respect nor protect all human life absolutely from the moment of conception. Nor does he recognize the inviolable right to life of every innocent being from the first moment of existence.
We compromise with evil when we fear: "I don't believe that enough of my brothers and sisters in Christ are going to vote for the pro-life candidate, so I am not going to vote for him either."
That's making other human beings our standard. God is pro-life. God is our standard.
That may be true when those are the only choices we have. But we have candidates with three distinct positions:
By what they have said, McCain/Palin will not protect ALL human life.
The Republican-Democrat-Media monopoly would have us believe, to their benefit, that there are only two candidates for whom to vote for the winner with a majoirty of the votes. In reality, as votes are cast for other than the Republican-Democrat, fewer votes will be needed to attain the plurality of votes to win.
It is in the peoples', and especially prenatal babies', best interests to vote for the pro-life candidate who best represents YOU.
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Then someone replied with a post containing this quote from the Bishops' guidelines on "How to Vote" http://www.catholic.com/support/voters_guide.asp. "... 1. For each office, first determine how each candidate with a real - even if unlikely - chance of winning stands of each issue that will come before him and involves non-negotiable moral principles. ... "
And my reply:
That's it! There it is! Life is THE non-negotiable moral principle. totally 100% pro-life Alan Keyes and Chuck Baldwin both have a real - even if unlikely - chance of wining.
The beautiful thing is, if people would but vote their conscience for the person who most represents them and follow God's way of choosing life, the chance of winning for such a candidate actually increases as the votes are split.
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Thank you for the lively, respectful conversation on this election. It is obvious that we all love God and care deeply about protecting human life and our country. I know it is out of that love of God and others as ourselves that we are all so passionate. We are not likely to resolve our differences now on how best to carry this out in this election. The powers that be, and have been for a long time, have done a good job of boxing us in and dividing us at the same time.
For anyone who is interested, there is a great group of mostly Christian, many Catholic, who a year ago decided it was time to rebuild government by the people. The result has been America's Independent Party. This effort has made some gigantic strides in its very short existence, and is poised to make a BIG difference in future elections.
The recent posts in the column on the right get buried quickly. Click on the link at the top for the party Platform. Also on the top is a link for the forum. The top two folders contain most of the posts (America's Forum and America's Prayer Network), newest first. Anyone who joins "affiliates" may post (you don't need to renounce other political party affiliation).
The forum and twice-weekly open conference calls will continue after this election.
